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John Emr:  A Texas Tea Party leader admitted recently what most of us already knew, the Republican party doesn’t want African-Americans to vote. When asked at a meeting of Texas Republicans “what can Republicans do to get black people to vote,” a Texas Tea Party leader, Ken Emanuelson, gave the following answer: “I’m going to be real honest with you, the Republican Party doesn’t want black people to vote if they’re going to vote 9-to-1 for Democrats.”
I knew that, did you?

Linda Sampson Rotella   One honest TP goon...must have thought it was a secret meeting and had their white hooded sheets on...

Jesse LoRe  [at the time of this dialogue, Jesse used a portrait of Mark Twain as a "Profile" icon to identify himself on FaceBook] John, I believe it is a qualified statement using the word "if" and I would take it one step farther and say I don't want anyone to vote DemoFascist. Have a great day.

Jeff Thomas   Courting the black vote warrants an "if" when the Republican/Conservative/Tea Party/Libertarian platform is starved of new ideas. (note to Jesse: "Obstructionism" is not a new idea.)
Why waste the time and effort pretending to be "inclusive" when you can just target the voting process and be done with it?

John Emr   Jeff, Jesse is an independent Libertarian, that doesn't necessarily mean he wants racist Neanderthal Republicans in office either, right Jesse? Or do you? Are you a fan of Louis Gohmert? Would you like a congress full of that shit?

Jeff Thomas    . . . and Jesse, you might want to familiarize a bit more with the writings of Mark Twain. You'll find your selection ironic at best. He pretty much despised the very philosophy you Libertarians call "common sense."
Here's a taste, compatible to a brief attention span:
http://www.henrygeorge.org/archimedes.htm
. . . have a great day.

John Emr   Voter suppression is the only way they'll ever win. Extraordinary, no? Ah, American ingenuity at work...

Jesse LoRe   Jeff you say "brief attention span" like that is a bad thing. Why is being mentally deficient a dis-qualifier? Do not those of us with limited intellect deserve the same extra-consideration of, say women in combat, or minorities with lower test scores? Or does your compassion only extend to those that agree with you? Just a thought for Jeff "Mr. Equality" Thomas, aka 'Mr Compassion'.

John Emr   Jesse, I suspect he was specifically referring to you, not all those with "brief attention spans". Stop playing victim, you know you're not...

Jeff Thomas   Ouch . . . although your disingenuous compassion toward the subject of minorities and the disabled leads me to believe I might be helping change your outlook.
I'd be better convinced if the reference you attach to "brief attention span" was restricted to your narrow, spiteful interpretation; however, by simply observing the hay of which a perfectly intelligent man such as your self has made of skimming the surface of these many complex issues; of forming entire platitudes from the crumb-tray of anecdote; I would be hard pressed to restrict the term "brief attention" to the cognitively handicapped.
Now before you take off in some other, unrelated direction, did you learn anything new about your old "hero" Sam.

Jesse LoRe   Jeff, I am afraid your genetically stunted intellect precludes you from reading the words that you so hastily post. Please take the time to read the article you posted and relate that to the circumstance of Americans, visa vi, Sam's perspective as it relates to our current form of "self governance".

Jeff Thomas   Jesse, I thank you for being patient with me; I have indeed squandered too much time with you, assuming that some relic of pride or decency might eventually surface from the cesspool of your rhetoric, (ref: your twin FB posts, from April: "I hate ni##ers". . . . . to some credit however, your daughter scolded you).
You are, plain and simply, unfocused. The essay is not a shuttlecock to be swatted back and forth. It is a document worthy of critique, an exposition of a man and his thoughts. Like the man who wrote it, it is not infallible; it deserves to be read and discussed, not rolled up in your fist to swat pests.

"Give me the private ownership of all the land, and will I move the earth? No; but I will do more. I will undertake to make slaves of all the human beings on the face of it. Not chattel slaves exactly, but slaves nevertheless" - Mark Twain

I hazard to guess you might recognize this from the essay. This would have been a constructive place to begin. Your bigotry simply cannot bear up to scrutiny. Sam has become your eggshell figurehead; to protect one pithy phrase, you would deny the truth of the very man who wrote it.
At this point, I assume you've already folded it into a paper hat. It would be impossible for someone with your remarkable erudition to have completely subjugated the thesis without intention. Your style of debate is as reckless as the politics you employ it to protect.
I like you, but suggest you practice your dialogue on someone less experienced before coming back to be humiliated by me again. (. . just a note: it's "vis a vis", not "visa vi" . . . have a great day.)
- 'Mr Compassion'

Jesse LoRe   Jeff, thanks for pointing to an abbreviation of my deficiencies and thanks again for caring enough to share.
As to my debate style: I did not realize this was a debate. I thought the idea was for us to sit idle while you drone on and on about yourself and fling insults. But if you want to have a civilized debate about Twark Main’s writing I would be glad to . Is Facebook the proper forum? Is brevity wasted here?
The quotation is just that, a quote, regardless of Clemmons’ political bent, the words sum up my perception of the ruling class in America today. As well as citing one quote by an author, (Clemmons) that some have described as the "Father of American literature" hardly elevates him to the status of "eggshell figurehead". I can state without hesitation Clemmons would not share your, complete and unquestioned trust in politicians, of any Party , to Lord over mankind in a just manner.

Is this really the source you want to use to support your thesis? Whatever that is? Some doctored up article of questionable origin. “If Mark Twain wrote the shorter version, did someone else contribute to the longer one attributed to “Twark Main”?” Dr. Jim Zwick, (http://www.georgistjournal.org/2012/09/14/mark-twain-and-the-single-tax/) The evidence points to this article having been written at least in part to Henry George.
However I am still not clear as to your point about Clemmons, are you saying that he advocated abandoning common sense in favor of the ideas of academics elitist, and is this article alone, what you are basing your argument on? Does Clemmons advocacy of the Single Tax make him a socialist? My understanding of the academic argument is that Clemmons “cherry-picked” the ideas of the Single Tax and Social Gospel movements that sought his approval to promote their cause. He is said to have supported the public ownership of utilities and infrastructure, but Clemmons also had the common sense to realize that no workable alternative to private ownership which did not restrict personal freedom and the right for one to enjoy the fruits of his labor had presented itself.
Also considering Clemmons many personal tragedies, [the deaths of his children] and financial troubles as a result of failed investments Clemmons view of the World had certainly become jaded at least a little. Also, you have to give consideration to the time in which Clemmons lived. He lived in a world where a slave owner could “put down” a man if he violated the wishes of his master or was no longer of use to him, where workers (of all colors) toiled on the land they could not own in exchange for the barest of sustenance. The world was in turmoil as the industrial age was in full swing and society was in transition from one socio-economic paradigm to another and as always happens the poor got poorer and the rich got richer. My observation Clemmons remained an observer, more so than an activist.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/archimedes.htm
http://www.georgistjournal.org/2012/09/14/mark-twain-and-the-single-tax/
http://www.biography.com/people/mark-twain-9512564

Jeff Thomas   A good pie fight ends when the shelves are cleared and not before, not the least concerned with who's hand tossed the first shell. There's been more than enough pastry hurled between the two of us to accept anything less than a commitment to stop and laugh at the filling-smeared portraits we've created for one another. You're no more victim than I am. Jolly good that!
My "thesis" continues to be a search for an alternative to the current corporate, libertarian and/or conservative climate which vilifies any discussion of government entitlements to this society's most vulnerable. A large collection of my views on the subject, covering a wide variety of "contemporary" issues can be accessed through this link:
http://jeffreygiov.blogspot.com/?zx=d991f9540c07af43
Here you will find evidence of my work, through dialogues, (most recently a debate with you, imagine that?), conversations and essays.
I respect and appreciate the effort with which you prepared your outstanding response. I also acknowledge that the integrity of the article's authorship is now officially suspect, though not without the obligatory dose of "conspiracy" subjectives: e.g.: "...did someone else contribute ...?"; "...the doubled length of the published article also raises a possibility of joint authorship; and "Did Twain also share the article with Beard, clarifying what “he’ll understand” about the free reign given him in creating the illustrations for the novel?"
I mention this to emphasize the mounting distraction resulting from our stubborn reference to Twain the man (available to us only through a malleable impression of his works), and Twain, the immutable icon of your embrace of Capitalist alienation. These were ideas (ref: Archimedes, Single Tax, Marxism) born of a post European revolution by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie; a struggle as old as "production" itself, yet whose incarnations are as unique to their times as the concept of "Universal Health Care" would be to mid-nineteenth century American sensibilities (read: untranslatable.)
FB is an unusual medium to invest more "capital" in such a rich topic, but I have to conclude by suggesting that your concept of Unrestricted Privatization under the cloak of Unbridled freedom from government intervention is desperately flawed. The freedom from Entitlements cannot answer to the right of a society's disadvantaged to avail themselves of enough resources to supply their basic needs, their humanity.
 

Jesse LoRe   Jeff,why am I not surprised by the obligatory, shameless plug for your collection of meandering ramblings.
Like Clemmons. your frame of reference is has been scaled over by progress for the human condition over the last century to the point you can barely recognize the dead form.
Just a thought maybe we should move this over to another page and leave John out of it. LMAO.
 . . . Have a great!

 

John Emr   It's funny, some people advocate cutting taxes so they see a few dollars more at the end of the year not realizing(blockheads) or caring(greedy) that this would devastate millions of people of whom the dream called "America" has evaded. I think you're both intelligent people, but let's acknowledge, we know plenty of people who are not. I'd like my taxes to be lower too, but not at the expense of people who don't or can't work the free market economy

http://youtu.be/CdAZ79AhcfY (note: this is a link to an edit from the Mr. Rodgers PBS children's show)

There's so much in this world we can learn, no matter how young or how old we are... 

 

Jeff Thomas   Jesse, . . . and why is it tediously predictable of you to frame every benevolent gesture with pig-headed suspicion? Your tendency to forget the questions you ask has become annoying, but for the sake of integrity, I'll continue the example I have set for you with the prospect you're not yet too damaged to learn.
Information seems to frighten you, so it is small wonder, the fascination it holds; anything so potent, it follows, must hold great value. Is this why you confuse my invitation to explore the form and content of my politics (my "thesis" as you put it) with a commodity? One "plugs" something for profit and "shares" something for which he expects no return. But then, it is my fault for assuming you were more clever with the concept of sharing.
If by "scaled over" you are attempting to express the idea that our perpetual concern for the "human condition" has, through contemporary enterprise, been rendered inconsequential, I politely refer you back to my dear friend John Emr, who initiates these discussions for the very dialectic exercise we are "guilty" of. What better use of this space than to crush the life out of an idea as selfish, contemptible and medieval as your own. And please, for the sake of my sanity, look up words and phrases you don't know. I'm tired of mining your words for meaning.
Have a greater day than yesterday.

 

(. . . and John, I was wondering if you know anything that might support the story about Fred's preference for zippered sweaters over buttons. My sources tell me that he skipped a button hole one time on primetime and was mortified. It was all zippers from then . . . true?)

 

John Emr   Since childhood, the sweaters were all made by his mother, and he preferred zippers, never buttons...

 

Jeff Thomas     . . . oh. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . so it was never buttons then . .. . . .. .. . . . I see.

 

Jesse LoRe   Jeff. 'scale deposits' such as lime or rust that tend collect on inanimate objects, like your politics.

Jeff Thomas   . . . and Jesse: Your reply about the "Archimedes" essay was far more involved than my reply. I would like you to understand my sincere appreciation of the work involved. FB, as you point out, is a difficult medium to address issues of such breadth, but worth the effort to sharpen our pens.
You ask what influence this article has on my "thesis"/"argument." I offered this essay as one might suggest a YouTube file from an old Jon Stewart show. I simply found it funny that you have replaced your profile picture with Sam's likeness and a quote of his, "not measuring what use he made of it" (Shakespeare, Henry V.) Your explanation was satisfactory to the task. Thanks.
It is as ridiculous to extrapolate my entire ethics from this essay as it would be to plumb the depths of Jon Stewart's body of work to understand the details of our economy.
and this:
" . . . where workers (of all colors) toiled on the land they could not own in exchange for the barest of sustenance."
Have you come across the term "alienation"? Marx coined this phrase to describe the ownership by one class of the diminished labor of another class. I ask because your context of the phrase in question seems to betray a sentiment at odds with a Capitalist model. How do you feel about this?

Oh, and by the by,  so you get the pun: "mining your words" . . . thank you.

Jesse LoRe I thought the quote expressed my feelings of disenfranchisement, and my feelings of a government that is against me, not just on the local level but on all levels. Not just against me but "for" the other guy. A government of good intentions and unforeseen consequences equals chaos, which is what we have now. I may not be sophisticated by any standard, but at least I have the benefit of knowing that what I say is true. Not sure what your experience is Jeff, but it does not sound like you have spent much time around the low or lower lower socioeconomic class. I am curious if you have ever, intentionally, been overseas to examine other cultures?

I realize (not sure if you do) that there will always exist the 20% of the population that is incapable of "taking care of themselves" and the debate we are having is what to do with these folks.
My position, which I think is reasonable is this:a safety net for the least able. The social experiment of the Great Society has failed. As evidence I point to the $17 trillion in national debt compared to the $18 trillion "invested" in the socialist movement. However noble an enterprise the Great Society "was", as it has morphed into full on Socialism, there is NO evidence that it has provided any catalyst to lift anyone out of poverty (with possible exception of thieves/politicians) in fact I say it has institutionalized poverty. I contend the government of the last 50 years has created a false economy that, as by the laws of nature will collapse. Government meddling in the economy prolongs recessions and actually insures that we have one regularly. Think of the government like the alcoholic or drug addict, conventional wisdom says they have to hit bottom before they can begin to recover. The same goes for the economy you have to weed out the bad, let the money change hands, so we get back to the business of making more of it. A good for you, is good for me, philosophy. Not a society where you take half of everything I make and give it to some schlep that can't earn.

I am not saying do nothing, just 'scale' it back to a more manageable level, and weed out the fraud and abuse that would more than make up any deficit. But no, our politicians are to lazy and greedy to do the real work of governing. As a Building Contractor in a past life, I cannot count how many times I have heard from public officials, how they had to 'spend it' or they would get their budgets cut, as if they were protecting their little fiefdom. How much sense does that make to you? What about all the deadbeat dads who's children you are supporting? Are you encouraging bad behavior? By what standard is that bad behavior you ask? By the standard of,"if you cannot afford to have kids then don't, fucking, have kids. What are you, a farmer with no tractor that you need 22 kids?

Jon Stewart---really!!!!! Guess I just never developed a taste for screaming and yelling as a form of entertainment. You, have fun with that though.

Jeff Thomas   You've lost the privilege of conjecture. You know nothing about me. My personal history would humble your smuggest efforts to discredit me. If you detect some resentment, try and recall the fun you had composing "genetically stunted intellect " after I shared personal, family related information concerning such matters. I was perfectly willing to let it ride, along with the rest of your jabs, but you now attempt to weave them into your thesis. Enough is enough.
The suggestion that you've cornered the market on "hardship" is simply irrelevant and egocentric.

You have finally conceded the need for specific entitlements for some abstract 20%. All your writing to this date suggest this is a new twist in your thinking. How is it possible to reconcile your claim:
"Not a society where you take half of everything I make and give it to some schlep that can't earn."
(Here we have the opportunity to explore the tangent issue: "You didn't make that.")

You blame the government for the recession. My thoughts on this subject begin here (not a plug, but a link to some information you are conceivably unaware of):
http://jeffreygiov.blogspot.com/2009/08/shortly-after-class-economics-student.html

I haven't time to continue right now, but I will finish by adding that it seems we're really not so far apart after all. There is much common ground between us. I hope to meet you there soon.

Jesse LoRe Ah Jeff I thought we were having fun here? As for the jab, chaulk that up to "short attention span" probably a symptom of to many blows to the head. Surely you do not credit me with being able to recall something that far in the past. I am not attempting to weave anything, just trying to offer some insight into how my perspective is formed. I would be that last person to complain about my circumstance as the my experience tells me I have no legitimate claim on misery. You are right that we do have more common ground than is apparent I believe where diverge is on the solution side. In closing I apprrciate your patience with my stunted intellect and apologize for the jab. Have to run finish up later. Thanks.

John Emr It will not be finished until one of you is dead.

Jeff Thomas Just needed to let you know it pissed me off. Thanks for writing back; explanation understood, apology accepted. . . took a few too many blows to the head myself over the years.                        

Snowed In . . .

On June 14, 2013, US federal prosecutors filed a sealed complaint, made public on June 21, against Edward Snowden, an American former technical contractor for the National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The complaint charged him with leaking information detailing a mass Surveillance Program operating under the full cooperation of the American and British spy agencies. These charges include the  unauthorized communication of national defense information, theft of government property,and the willful communication of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person. Snowden's leaks are said to rank among the most significant breaches in the history of the NSA.

On May 20, 2013, he left Hawaii for Hong Kong. On June 23, he then traveled to Moscow where it is believed he is waiting for authorization from Ecuador for permanent asylum.

Edward Snowden opened the world's eyes to the existence and practices a program dedicated to the illegal surveillance of the global public by the most powerful clandestine organizations in history.
Though a hero to many, Snowden is also considered a traitor to the United States by many others. His actions have indeed opened fresh diplomatic wounds between the United States and various governments around the world. This conversation is not intended to settle the issue, but instead offers a glimpse into the contemporary dialogue among average American citizens.

(Note: As the drama is young yet, the facts and opinions recorded here are subject to dramatic contextual change.)

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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=554217607955424&set=a.456102341100285.99159.455942847782901&type=1&theater

(note: this link connects to a photo of Edward Snowden over which the following message is printed:
"Sadly, 97% of FaceBookers won't repost this. BUT . . .
this is Edward Snowden. He gave up a $200,000 a year salary and his freedom so you could know that the NSA is spying on you. He fought for your privacy rights and didn't ask for anything in return.
Like and Share to show your support for Edward Snowden.)

Joe Cobb sorry, I already knew the NSA spied on lots of people...he's a criminal and his disclosure of classified material has hurt this country.

John Emr It's all good Joe. I really don't know what his motivations are, but I do know we have given up a lot of our personal freedom in the fight against terrorism. His actions may lead to more attention to this sacrifice of freedom. I am not a fan of "Big Brother"...

Jane Maru Brave man on many levels. Of course there will be haters, one of the unfortunate outcomes when truth is spoken. I continue to feel bewilderment by those who say he has broken the law when the law itself is clearly broken; and that our country has been compromised by this information is ludicrous, yet another indicator that the willfully ignorant shall always be with us.

Joe Cobb To be effective as a Security Agency against terrorists networks these days unfortunately means you have to be secretive and stealthy, this means what you do to protect Americans needs to be classified. The definition of classified means if you're not cleared and have a need to know, than you don't have a right to know. Disclosing classified information is a crime. This is nothing new. If he didn't know he was committing a crime, he wouldn't be on the run. Doesn't everyone know that credit card companys already know much more about you than the NSA does? If you aren't a threat to Americans, I'm sure the NSA has little interest in you.

Jesse LoRe I thought it was common knowledge that the NSA is spying on us! But we did not need this jack leg telling the rest of the world we are spying on them as well.

Joe Cobb I'm sure that those who want to harm Americans ie. kill them, are loving all the info this guy is spewing. He likely has done much more harm than good. Information gathered by NSA has no doubt, saved American lives. What are you willing to sacrifice to do that? War sucks but losing a war is much worse.

John Emr  Zuckerberg and Facebook know more about me than anyone! That's why I think Facebook is completely funded by the CIA/NSA! Have you ever bought anyone a Starbucks gift card from Facebook?

Jesse LoRe John back in the early days of the internet when you typed "internet" in the search window the first thing that pooped up, was the big ol' CIA emblem. The government created the internet but there is way to much information moving around today for anyone to possibly monitor all of it.

Jane Maru  Joe, you are not alone in what you believe.
"Protecting Americans", "Threat to Americans": catch-all phrases that are all the rage, everyone's saying them!!
It is my belief that to come from a stance of fear/defense is a detriment to our culture.
Countries have been spying and prying on one another for centuries and beyond. With technology, we can now go deeper/farther.

Jane Maru Daniel Ellsberg (if you don't know, he leaked the Pentagon Papers in 1971):
"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-America

Joe Cobb The definition of "terrorism" is to instill fear in people through seemingly random acts of violence. On 9/11 this war came to us when nearly 3000 innocent people were murdered in NYC and Jihad was declared on America. I for one, feel safer knowing that agencies like NSA are gathering intelligence on our enemy. Some things you just don't want to know. The threats to Americans are quite real and the challenging job of protecting Americans is more than just a catch phrase. Just ask any U.S. Marine, they'll tell you.

Jane Maru I talk to Marines all the time. I live in 29 Palms. I get my information first hand.

Joe Cobb then you know that they are not fighting a "catch phrase."

Jane Maru Words carry an energy all their own. The more they're repeated, the more likely they become or seem real. I choose a different perspective than the ones that consume the media.
I've been in conversation with Marines for over a decade. It sounds as if you would be shocked, Joe, to hear what they are saying.

John Emr And we live under a government that at one time advertised we were going to war over WMDs that didn't exist and threat used against dissent was a mushroom cloud analogy. There is definitely a threat, but it's due blow back. Terrorists are after America because of what our government and corporations have done, not because they hate our freedom. As usual, the government and the corporations(aka: the rich), are off the hook, we pay for it with our maudlin lives along with our tax dollars. Something has to be done to shake this system up. Ellsberg did it, Manning and now Snowden. If we were pursuing alternative energy sources like our lives depended on it, we could get out of the middle east, but alas, our oil company's heroin comes from this region, so we stay, and continue to fan the flames of terrorism every day we do...

Joe Cobb Jane, my whole family are Marines, my brother was killed in the Marine Corps. I myself am a veteran still working for DOD on a military base. I train the military on a daily basis and posses a security clearance so I can do so. I know very well what the military men and women are saying. If you do not fear what terrorists would do to you because you are an American if given the chance, you are either living in a fantasy world or the NSA is doing a really good job. Some people, like the people who work at NSA, get paid to deal with the reality. The intelligence they collect, which will never be and should never be public information, saves the lives of our armed forces overseas as much as it protects you here at home.

Jane Maru I gathered you were military, Joe. Thank you for taking the time to engage.
May you find peace in your heart.

Joe Cobb I agree with most of what you are saying John except for one thing terrorists groups do hate our culture of freedom. They shoot girls in the head for attempting to get an education. Their beliefs and hatred of the west, are deeply embedded in religious fanatacism. Jihad means "holy war". They want a world where every women is in a Burka and anyone who does not believe what they do shoot be beheaded.

John Emr Very, very few of them are of this jihad mentality. Just like very few of our christians are looking to stone adulterers. What they do in their own country and under the laws and rules that they have chosen, is some pretty sick stuff to me and most of us, but the people in any given country are free to do as they choose. We get involved, install a shah or regime to protect our rich greedy multinational conglomerations(again aka: the rich)interests, which we know eventually backfires and brings us to our knees, as in Iran circa 1979. We need off oil. We need to stay away from the house where the dog lives that likes to bite us. We are reaping what we've sown.
Perspective: Americans have killed more Americans since Sandy Hook than died in the WMD war in Iraq, or on 9/11.

Jim Ellis Instead of folks just saying "those evil so and sos, they just hate our freedom", it might be worth considering the political histories of outside nations in oil rich countries. It might also be worth checking into what power structures benefit from a perpetual state of war. Those issues might not be as easy to understand (and keep down) but I pretty sure it will get us closer to knowing what is really going on.

Joe Cobb Would be nice if terrorists groups just stuck to themselves. Unfortunately, on 9/11, a day I will never forget, the Bin Laden led group Al-queda declared war on the United Sates and called upon other terrorists groups to join in by calling it a holy war. There have been mistakes made and I'm not defending them, but it doesn't negate the fact that we are still engaged in that same war that started before we entered Iraq. These groups want Israel, the US, England and other socially advanved countries to go back to the stone ages where they are stuck. What they did to 3000 of my friends and countrymen is inexcusable. As to exactly, why they did it, I don't really give a shit. Our government and our Commander in Chief have a legal and moral obligation to use our military might whenever necessary to keep America and Americans safe. The message sent: you fuck with America, you get the horns. Do I wish we all got along...sure I do. Do I think they will negotiate?...not when there's virgins involved.

Jim Ellis Not giving a shit why they did it, insures that such things will continue to happen.

Joe Cobb I don't give a shit why they did it because what they did in targeting innocent civilians was dispicable and inexcusable for any reason. They are the lowest form of scum on earth and have no respect for human life or human rights. They are misguided extremists and what they have learned is that when you piss off the American people, you get a role in a major motion picture about you being eliminated from planet earth. You want to defend terrorists, go right ahead. People I know are not confused about who the good guys are.

John Emr We've been targeting their innocent civilians long before they targeted our Joe. What year did we install the Shah? We threw the first stone. Flash forward to Iraq today: 4,000 plus American troops dead, 100,000 plus Iraqi civilians dead, 1,500,000 plus Iraqis displaced from their homes, 0 WMDs found. China is the largest consumer of Iraqi oil because American oil companies are too damned greedy. We need to get moving on alternate energy and get out of the middle east.

Joe Cobb John, I'm not going to debate the iraq war with you other than to say that the US does not intentially target innocent civilians because we are not terrorists. Jim when you fly commercial airliners into civilian buildings, you clearly have no interest in peace. In my opinion, you are giving Al queda way too much credit or you just don't give a shit about the people who were murdered in the WTC.

Jim Ellis So Joe, first you accused me of defending terrorists, now I'm ambivalent to murder victims, all because I don't agree with you? Keep those mental gymnastics up. Did you know I'm wearing a monocle. That brush of yours is just a tad broad.

Linda Sampson Rotella What happened when sensitive issues were "top secret"? I will wait and see where this goes....nor do I think that this hasn't been done for the last few decades .
Although I do have to say this...I am guessing that the Boston Marathon Brothers phone calls were not included in these phone call interventions...
My father was in Marines almost 20 years..and my brother in the Air Force for 28 years in the last 15 years or so...as a sensor on an AC-130 Spectre Gunboat...a sensor can see the ground from the picture that the Infra Red (google AC-130 and see actual hits)
That being said..my father after his return from WWll (Guadacanal) and Korean War..and I never heard him talk about either...wouldn't talk about anything.
I also asked my brother many questions..
Me: "I Read in Newsweek that the AC-130 are taking off from Italy...
My brother: I cannot confirm or deny that question..which was his response to anything I asked...information remains secretive for a reason...I cannot understand this new trend of McCain and others wanting the Government to have newly acquired information to be given to the world immediately ( eg Benghazi) what our response will be..should be confidential...shouldn't it?
Maybe I am old school.... But what happened to Classified Information?

Joe Cobb Jim it's just that you seem to want to justify what the terrorists have done rather then condemn them. If we don't come back strong then the terrorists continue to tell our enemies that we are weak and continue to blow up Americans. War sucks, its never pretty but we did not start this one. John and I agree on most issues but apparently not on the war on terror. Our armed forces are risking their lives in Afganistan to keep this war off our streets and all that is needed is a big thank you for what you do. Terrorists are willing to blow themselves up if it means killing you and I. I for one am not willing to wait for that to happen. We know more about their organizations than most of their own leadership that has managed to survive. We know them well enough to know that our work is not done. We have weakened our enemy to the point where troops are starting to come home, a very good thing and I give a lot of credit to the President.

Jeff Thomas With all due respect, I'm not quite sure that the Marines get the final word here. Many of the principles you Service men and woman enlisted to protect are undermined by the Federal practice of covert activity on its citizens.
It is an equally valid observation that a majority of Americans remain satisfied with the patronizing justification of these tactics as necessary toward minimizing the human cost: i.e.: an "all volunteer" military; reduction of successful terrorist activity on our shores. (read: keep the war abstract, out of my living room.)
I agree with John when he criticizes the armchair complacency of our citizens, perfectly willing to loose the reins of "privacy" as the tax for the right to ignore many of the socio-economic practices which perpetuate the need for these encroaching, invasive practices.
"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin.
I am of the firm belief that the life of a soldier is no less valuable than the life of any civilian who lost their life in the 9/11 attacks.
Allowing the terrorist to watch us dismantle our highest principles for fear that our "mercenary force field" is inadequate delivers a special sense of victory that too few of us mention in these debates.

John Emr "Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben FranklinJoe, I agree with you, but I also believe our government and corporations(aka the rich) are the real traitors here. The economy thrives on the military industrial complex. It creates many civilian jobs, as well as feeds the mercenary economy, which in facts sacrifices our troops at a discount, but makes big money for the corporate entities behind it, Haliburton, Lockheed, etc.

Joe Cobb Here's my final two thoughts....1)this NSA whistle blower broke the law and most likely will go to jail for it and 2) we need to remain the best fighting force around which includes the use of cutting edge technology like drones if we are going to minimize losses to American lives. Drones are as accurate as the intelligence that is fed into them and is fed to our leadership. It's not surprising that Fox News is taking the oportunity to attack the NSA since they were running out of fabricated scandals to talk about in their relentless effort to damage the Obama administration. Fact is that most of what was leaked were things set up by the Bush administration but we know that doesn't matter. Lastly, having to wait in line at the airport while TSA ensures your flight is a safe one is an unfortunate consequence of what we know now about terrorists. It's the world we now live in. It could be worse. You can call taking precautions being fearful if you want but I call it being smart and unlike 9/11, prepared.

Jeff Thomas I agree with you on much of this Joe, but waiting on lines at the airport aint unlawful and being smart aint the same as being Constitutional. If we can't operate a safe defense under the Constitution then let's get some amendments out there for open discussion in Congress and let We the People swallow some of the complicity inherent in these "Our Contradictions."
------------------------- a few hours later ------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Thomas An eloquent essay describing the weakness of my opinion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html
I like Thomas Friedman, and thought this was worth sharing.

Joe Cobb Thank you for this. My argument exactly.

Jeff Thomas My pleasure Joe. This article manages a deep suspicion I share with many critics of the data-mining program; namely: the inclusion of an independent judicial check on it's operation. This emphasis was clearly absent from my initial posts.; hence my "weakness."
However, the article also bears out a critical flaw in our approach to the "war on Terror" which I conclude is the American population's willingness to delegate our attention to the custodial clean-up of the consequences to a system which continues to offend the long term stability of the global economy and the environment.

"Imagine how many real restrictions to our beautiful open society we would tolerate if there were another attack on the scale of 9/11." Friedman, from Blowing a Whistle

The subject of this Country's unwillingness to compromise our reckless addiction to "conspicuous consumption" is never considered in this debate. We simply provide our tithe to the Federal Government and assume they will sort out these pesky foreign problems by proxy. This includes an "anonymous" army(*) of volunteer soldiers and the slow erosion of our protection of personal privacy.

(*) I mean no disrespect to those like yourself who serve. I'm simply expressing this "vacancy of inclusion" the vast majority of the nation's civilians experience when the subject of personal sacrifice is introduced. The wars remain abstract, the sacrifices are abstract, the only connection to the process is felt in the supermarket and the gas pump.

Joe Cobb Well said Jeff. As true Americans meaning soldiers, civilians, veterans, reservists and the like, we are all in this for the long haul together. Nothing affects this country more deeply and profoundly that being successfully attacked on our own soil. Most adult Americans have never forgotton the horror of 12/7, the day that Pearl Harbor fell victim to a sneak attack. 9/11 killed many more victims and nealy 100% of them were civilians living the American dream and relying on our government to keep them safe. What does it take to prevent such tragedys from repeating? I don't pretend to have the knowledge or the clearance to know the answer to that question but I know it will take much more than simply putting boots on the ground around the world. Shortly after 9/11, I had an interesting personal experience, I called information and asked for a number of one of my best friends from high school, who's name happens to be Mohammed. When I was connected, I found myself speaking to an unknown voice saying that he in fact was Mohammed, (used his last name). I said I'm tring to reach Mohammed that graduated from Molloy HS with me in 1980 and he said this is he. I named his brothers and he said this is he. Only thing was, I knew it wasn't him and later confirmed it with my friend who wasn't surprised it happened at all.

John Emr I wonder what would have happened if his name was McVeigh?

Jane Maru Some of us are born in the world to create, some to destroy: Light and dark: the eternal balance.

Joe Cobb The US military men and women that work so hard for your freedom were not "born to destroy" anymore than you are. What they do is protect you and defend this great country from people who wish to destroy it. You owe them respect for the risks they do take for you.

Jane Maru:  http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/9320-dont-thank-me-for-my-service
  (this a link to an essay written by an American soldier: Don't Thank Me for My Service)

John Emr True of most for sure. Some are sexually assaulting quite a few within the ranks, as well as committing some atrocities. Not all heroes... I've read this before Jane, it's poignant...and heartfelt.

Joe Cobb That's true John. Jane, whether a Marine thinks he should receive thanks or not, you should be thankful for them and expressing your gratitude is appreciated by the vast majority. Without these people you would be slaving away in some factory without the opportunity to create a thing for sure. I do know one group that does not think they should thank our soldiers or show respect to them at their funerals. You don't belong to a Baptist church do you?

John Emr Hell no. But I also am wary of sounding patronizing. The horrors of war are unimaginable for civilians. Friends and family who've experienced it have told me no movie has ever captured it. I respect our troops and my thanks is always there...my distain for governments and the greedy rich corporatists who profit from it lingers.