WASHINGTON –AP- An official briefed on the attack on a Detroit airliner said Saturday the U.S. has known for at least two years that the suspect in the attack could have terrorist ties. The Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment list is maintained by the U.S. National Counterterrorism Center. It includes about 550,000 names.
-Comment-
Well, guess we have about 549,999 remaining. I do hope they treat this guy real nice while we continue searching for his buddies. And what of the "hero" passenger that foiled the attempt? He'll probably be sued in civil court for attacking this citizen of the world and he’ll lose. I say American justice for American citizens. HEAR, HEAR! Punishment for all others can be found in the Old Testament, and dump the due process, please. Remember, they are not American citizens and have nothing more than the utmost disrespect for you, me, and this wonderful country in which we were born and raised. This douche bag tried to blow up a plane so put him in an old plane and blow it up. The passengers are already lined up at the gates of Gitmo, International.
Get real you say? I know this guy won't be blown up. How silly of me, but it's a pity. I say these things not to get under your skin but under the skin of the ideology you and so many others stand so strongly by. I don't feel the tactic of open field warfare should be employed in fighting this enemy. If we used this method against the English in the 1700's, today, you and I would be very pompous and we would be wearing powdered wigs to formal outings. I respect the spiritual beliefs of all religious denominations. I enjoy writing from left to right. I enjoy seeing our women dress scantly. I don't want to see these or others things changed for another's lack of respect for our beliefs. I don’t want to see their disagreement with western culture argued with the taking of life anymore than you. But taking this element to American court house is like yelling at your dog for shitting on the carpet. How much success have you experience when you’ve decided that screaming at doggie was warranted? Sure, you were able to vent but the stupid fuck shit on the carpet again. Making an example of this pond scum in a court house is as effective as verbally abusing man's best friend. The ASCPA and other animal rights groups would be satisfied but your home will stink like shit and the stains in your carpet will deepen and spread. But kick your dog in the ass a couple of times and I guarantee your results will improve. Pavlov was a reasonably sharp guy and his lessons can be of great value in dealing with more than just the canine species.
In a recent conversation you enlightened me with regards pragmatism. Don’t you think this county and our beliefs are worth the deployment of this way of thinking? We are fighting an ideology. The only way to prevail is to adjust ours. Being righteous is cool but useless if you’re dead.
This morning I herd on the news that the prosecution is working on building a case against this guy. Let's help him out here. 300 passengers were on the plane. A lot of these folks witnessed the crime as it was in progress. DNA is being collected? Give me a fucking break. He who lives by the microscope is going to die because of the microscope. Stop looking through that little fucking eyepiece. The view from the naked eye at times is pretty good. The guy’s legs were burned as well as the American citizen who intervened. He had explosives strapped to his legs. The accused chose a seat above the fuel tanks and an area of the plane where the skin is thin.
This attempted bombing was well planned. His own father turned information in to our government regarding his beliefs and his possible ties to Al Qaeda and Yemen. A couple of snapshots, some eyewitness testimony and we can start tying a knot. The rest of this shit is all just a show. It should all be page 6 news but it has turned into a show of weakness that we aren’t willing to do ALL that is necessary to defend what we all hold sacred. Why the Attorney General for the United States is involved with military matters is beyond me. He's a well dressed pussy and who ever is pulling his strings is an ass.
And now I hear that a second person, Nigerian, found locked in the plane's bathroom, has also been taken into custody. We should probably be nice to him too, I guess.
- Metal Guru
- and a brief analysis:
Dear Guru,
Well, guess we have about 549,999 remaining.
Impeccable mathmatics. Except for the guy in the bathroom which makes it 549,998
I do hope they treat this guy real nice while we continue searching for his buddies.
I am aware that any “treatment” shy of “death by a thousand cuts” will not satisfy your desire for speedy justice on the dime. Sit tight and let the Constitution breathe a bit.
And what of the "hero" passenger that foiled the attempt? He'll probably be sued in civil court for attacking this citizen of the world and he’ll lose.
Now you’re just being silly . . .
I say American justice for American citizens. HEAR, HEAR! Punishment for all others can be found in the Old Testament, and dump the due process, please.
What about the Preamble to the Constitution? How can America Dump “due process” and still be America? Reminds me of Rodger Waters traveling as Pink Floyd . . . without Mason, Wright and the other guy.
Remember, they are not American citizens and have nothing more than the utmost disrespect for you, me, and this wonderful country in which we were born and raised. This douche bag tried to blow up a plane so put him in an old plane and blow it up. The passengers are already lined up at the gates of Gitmo, International.
Great P.R. move! Why not simply provide free airfare to Yemen? This country raised me to believe in a little thing called “chex and balances” . . (and its not just a breakfast cereal anymore !) My feelings about Gitmo are available for leisure time reading on the blog, (ref.: Jeffreygiov.blogspot.com . . . . see September: Camp Iguana Redux)
Get real you say? I know this guy won't be blown up. How silly of me, but it's a pity. I say these things not to get under your skin but under the skin of the ideology you and so many others stand so strongly by.
If you are referring to the “ideology” of resolving to uncover the “root cause” of an issue, it behooves me to point out that you (and the ideology you share with so many others) always seem to be somewhere in the thick of it. Think of me, simply vacuuming the room while you sit on the couch complaining of having to lift your feet . . .
I don't feel the tactic of open field warfare should be employed in fighting this enemy. If we used this method against the English in the 1700's, today, you and I would be very pompous and we would be wearing powdered wigs to formal outings.
I lament all of your untapped strategic potential. Herein lies the second greatest waste of talent since Tiger hung up his clubs.
The tactic of King George failed because he underestimated the impact of British investment in the creation of a sovereign nation. Al Qaeda just wants our presence out of the picture. They don’t even want a cool flag. . . . besides, you and I are pompous!
I respect the spiritual beliefs of all religious denominations.
What does this even mean ? ! ? A conversation exploring this one sentence, especially within the context of some remarks you’ve made in this single letter, would be worthy of its own blog . . .
I enjoy writing from left to right. I enjoy seeing our women dress scantly. I don't want to see these or others things changed for another's lack of respect for our beliefs. I don’t want to see their disagreement with western culture argued with the taking of life anymore than you.
“He who ignores the lessons of history is doomed to repeat it”. Look for it all you want, but you won’t find Big Ben or one stitch of the English countryside anywhere in O’Toole’s “Lawrence of Arabia”. We (British, French, Dutch and American big oil companies and the like) brought the love-fest to their neighborhood, NOT the other way around.
But taking this element to American court house is like yelling at your dog for shitting on the carpet.
Interesting metaphor. That makes You “Master” and the depraved terrorists merely “dogs”. I always wondered if my poor old beagle, Bailey, understood her place in our relationship . . .
How much success have you experience when you’ve decided that screaming at doggie was warranted? Sure, you were able to vent but the stupid fuck shit on the carpet again. Making an example of this pond scum in a court house is as effective as verbally abusing man's best friend. The ASCPA and other animal rights groups would be satisfied but your home will stink like shit and the stains in your carpet will deepen and spread. But kick your dog in the ass a couple of times and I guarantee your results will improve.
I can tell you’ve never owned a dog. Trust me. It don’t work this way. I’d back-peddle a bit on that “guarantee”. Reminds me of an Abbott and Costello sketch where they’re trying to unload a vacuum on some lady. It ends with Costello asking for some ketchup to go with his hat. [seems the lady had no electricity in the house for the demo] . . .
Pavlov was a reasonably sharp guy and his lessons can be of great value in dealing with more than just the canine species.
Pavlov never kicked a dog. Come to think of it, I don’t think Pavlov ever kicked an Arab . . .
In a recent conversation you enlightened me with regards pragmatism. Don’t you think this county and our beliefs are worth the deployment of this way of thinking?
You and I are both interested in using our moral compass to make a tough decision easier to swallow. It is the beauty of our inheritance as U.S. citizens, under a Constitution as spectacular as our own, that you and I don’t need to share a compass. This is Pragmatism. Synchronizing our compasses is Philosophy. Compromising on North is Democracy.
We are fighting an ideology.
To some degree, this is true from one American to the next. For example: young kids are suited up and shipped to the other side of the globe to mop up the mess created by large international corporations who swindled the very civilizations who have finally achieved the means to blow up our planes and buildings in retaliation. These business men who hide behind our diplomats, dead soldiers and hijacked civilians then hide their profits overseas. They don’t give a damn about you or me. Sounds too familiar and equally unsettling, no? The only way to prevail is to adjust ours. Being righteous is cool but useless if you’re dead.
You’re confusing tactics with ideology. Many German citizens from the 1930’s and 40’s survived by supporting the Nazi war machine without believing Hitler was sane. I believe a nation of living monsters, scumbags and cowards is worse than a nation who chose to win the war without collapsing under the weight of moral fatigue.
This morning I heard on the news that the prosecution is working on building a case against this guy. Let's help him out here. 300 passengers were on the plane. A lot of these folks witnessed the crime as it was in progress. DNA is being collected? Give me a fucking break. He who lives by the microscope is going to die because of the microscope. Stop looking through that little fucking eyepiece. The view from the naked eye at times is pretty good. The guy’s legs were burned as well as the American citizen who intervened. He had explosives strapped to his legs. The accused chose a seat above the fuel tanks and an area of the plane where the skin is thin.
But they got all that cool shit down at the lab ! ! What the hell are they supposed to do? Let it sit on the shelf? Relax . . . Your witnesses will all get a chance to take a few days off from work to testify. What if this guy’s DNA helps clear up some question from an earlier crime? Thank God they have two guys working the case. This leaves three eyes to look around at the rest of the crime scene.
This attempted bombing was well planned.
Except the tiny detail of finding someone with experience lighting a fucking match !
His own father turned information in to our government regarding his beliefs and his possible ties to Al Qaeda and Yemen. A couple of snapshots, some eyewitness testimony and we can start tying a knot. The rest of this shit is all just a show.
The show is called our Justice System. Sorry it keeps interfering with your lynching. How about you and I go out this weekend, have a few pints and find us an illegal immigrant and taunt him until he hangs himself . . .
It should all be page 6 news but it has turned into a show of weakness that we aren’t willing to do ALL that is necessary to defend what we all hold sacred.
I hold “due process” sacred. This is protected by the Constitution. The United States is an idea, not a zip code. (I think I just heard a great “sigh” from Hawaii) Now I’m repeating myself. Sorry. Why the Attorney General for the United States is involved with military matters is beyond me. He's a well dressed pussy and whoever is pulling his strings is an ass. The Attorney General’s office was used by Alberto Gonzales to justify many military activities which chose to perform in civilian costume. This was the only way to avoid restricting our information gathering techniques to Name, Rank and Serial Number quality. (Sneaky devils, aint we?). I agree with you on one point however. His suits are very nice. Very sharp indeed.
And now I hear that a second person, Nigerian, found locked in the plane's bathroom, has also been taken into custody. We should probably be nice to him too, I guess.
I heard they were still negotiating with him to get out of the bathroom. Where did you hear that he agreed to wipe up and pull up his trousers?
I simply have to get out more.
love,
Prof. H W
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- and Mr. Metal Guru responded with:
Prof. H.Wind
Some points I'll bow too. As always, when I quick draw, I inevitably hit an innocent bystander. Other points we’ll "discuss" for the rest of our days. I imagine the two of us at sea. With an emergency at hand, you’d be found on poop deck spouting maritime law and regulations to disenchanted passengers. And I, in the wheel house screaming at the Captain for hitting that fucking iceberg. Either way, we wouldn't make Chelsea Pier.
I'm eagerly waiting to see the disposal of the very element that despises our constitution and all it stands for by the flow chart outlined within its binder. So many laws were broken in handling the Gitmo detainees that our judicial system could in theory allow these scumbags their freedom. Here's what's troubling. This possibility was brought to the attention of Attorney General Eric Holder. He indicated it wouldn’t happen but if so we would still hold them as enemy combatants.
So in essence, we allow enemies of this country the rights provided to Americans for a fair trial. If things don't go in our favor we just detain them anyway. There's a lot of righteousness at stake. That's what this is all about, right? “You’ve been found not guilty but we're going to throw you in jail for life, regardless". I fail to see anything righteous with this charade and it sounds like another black eye for the USA.
With a system like this, OJ shouldn’t have walked, although he didn’t fall into the parameters of an enemy combatant. But if we were to have applied the same thinking, I’m sure something could have been written quickly to detain him. He allegedly killed citizens of the United States. That’s not much different that what Al Qaeda wants. The phrase enemy combatant with regard to definition has been danced around since 9/11. I urge you to become confused with the newest rendition of the definition at the following site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant
I think we’re only fooling ourselves by redefining words and phrases so we can say we’ve remained on the side of righteousness. Global sentiment wouldn’t be any more favorable with “we’ll hold him anyway’ then with our current policies. Sweeping any resolution to the misdeeds of yesterday behind the protection of the constitution doesn’t secure justification. Changing direction to a suit and tie approach at the 11th hour is only allowing for borrowed time that our foes will exploit. We’ve called for a “time out” by extending our hand but their ordinance has already released in the form hatred and is being delivered by their clenched fists.
The past actions of this country have opened Pandora’s Box. If you honestly believe we’ll be able to close it with some hand shaking and the backing of our court houses, you better get home before midnight or your coach will turn back into a pumpkin. If the goal is to remain honorable in the face of adversity, that’s very nice. I, however, would prefer an offensive defense and without prejudice. We try, convict, and imprison criminals not only as punishment for their wicked deeds but to deter other from continuing in there evil ways. These lunatics won’t flinch with this tactic and the physical damage that an “Al Qaeda” can unleash grows exponentially. We need to hold up more than a bible and the American Flag to distance their eagerness to cause harm from our shores.
I may be softening my views but I’m easily confused with much of this issue. Although I continue to search for the ideal scenario, I would feel a hell of a lot safer if we could replace Eric Holder with George Patton.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and another brief (point by point) analysis:
Some points I'll bow to.
This is entirely unnecessary. . . . Unless you were just shooting from the hip with a nautical pun.
As always, when I quick draw, I inevitably hit an innocent bystander.
The deck is awash with the blood of these innocent, collateral victims. Every American deserves to wake each morning knowing the law of the land survived the night. It is with full knowledge and respect of your contempt for microscopes that I nonetheless urge you to slip into an Optician’s shop and be fitted for a pair of glasses.
Other points we’ll "discuss" for the rest of our days. I imagine the two of us at sea. With an emergency at hand, you’d be found on poop deck spouting maritime law and regulations to disenchanted passengers. And I, in the wheel house screaming at the Captain for hitting that fucking iceberg.
The analogy is perfect with one exception. I am using Maritime law to prevent you from hoisting a captured Terrorist over the rail and into the briny deep without a trial. Maritime law holds no jurisdiction over stray ice. The image of you in the wheelhouse however, seems consistent enough.
Either way, we wouldn't make Chelsea Pier.
No ship with a tear in her hull would make it without assistance. The question here is whether or not the prisoner would survive, given his right under the law, to meet his fate in court.
I'm eagerly waiting to see the disposal of the very element that despises our constitution and all it stands for by the flow chart outlined within its binder.
Translation: I can’t wait to destroy Al Qaeda because it despises our Constitution.
I couldn’t agree with you more. It is the Mona Lisa of the world’s governments; each line placed in exact balance to its neighbor, creating a scaffold of “checks and balances” that liberate our freedoms while bracing our vulnerabilities. Whoever would destroy this set of principles destroys our nation. To remove a single brace for one isolated convenience (say, ignore “due process”) would cause the scaffold to fall. Al Qaeda knows this and will destroy our country as much in this manner as a hundred planes into a hundred buildings. I’m simply not going to watch this happen with my mouth shut.
So many laws were broken in handling the Gitmo detainees that our judicial system could in theory allow these scumbags their freedom. Here's what's troubling. This possibility was brought to the attention of Attorney General Eric Holder. He indicated it wouldn’t happen but if so we would still hold them as enemy combatants.
How do you interrogate prisoners from an unconventional war? Alberto Gonzales threaded this needle with a jack hammer. We wanted more than name, rank and serial number so Geneva was out. We needed to hold them indefinitely and force them to incriminate themselves, so Miranda was out. So we create a third category of prisoner: the “enemy combatant”. By this date, even those wretched souls picked up or sold to the US army without the slightest crime on their file, have learned enough to make them valuable informants or dangerous targets upon release. These are the “white hair” decisions each president is expected to make during his time in the oval office. Who could have guessed that such a mess would have been left by one Administration for the next? Seems almost “un-American”, don’t it? Nevertheless, with the clock ticking and the media asking questions, all that has been resolved it seems is a concrete list of reasons that these prisoners are too dangerous to house somewhere between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Add the fact that Fox news announced that Barak Obama is African American, and what was a Puzzle becomes a time bomb.
So in essence, we allow enemies of this country the rights provided to Americans for a fair trial. If things don't go in our favor we just detain them anyway. There's a lot of righteousness at stake. That's what this is all about, right? “You’ve been found not guilty but we're going to throw you in jail for life, regardless". I fail to see anything righteous with this charade and it sounds like another black eye for the USA.
Ask Richard Reid (the “shoe Bomber”) if the system worked for him. He was found guilty and is enjoying his wonderful accommodations a few hundred feet underground, somewhere closer to the center of the earth than the Colorado landscape above him. That is the life he worked so hard to achieve. And no American has Al Qaeda-style blood on their hands.
With a system like this, OJ shouldn’t have walked, although he didn’t fall into the parameters of an enemy combatant. But if we were to have applied the same thinking, I’m sure something could have been written quickly to detain him.
These are the times, Mr. Metal Guru, that you make my case for me. Am I finally getting through . . . or is this merely irony? How sinister the law becomes when you bend the first brace; just remember the scaffold above.
He allegedly killed citizens of the United States. That’s not much different than what Al Qaeda wants.
He also made many Americans smile as a sports hero. That’s not much different than what sports hero Derek Jeter does. This is simply flawed association. It is the sum ideology that is at focus here and not an isolated behavior. It is the ease with which the undisciplined argument slides from focused to hazy that sidetracks honest discussion. Just watch Fox News to see this technique brought to an art form.
The phrase enemy combatant with regard to definition has been danced around since 9/11. I urge you to become confused with the newest rendition of the definition at the following site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant
I think we’re only fooling ourselves by redefining words and phrases so we can say we’ve remained on the side of righteousness. Global sentiment wouldn’t be any more favorable with “we’ll hold him anyway’ then with our current policies.
I think I can go with you part way here. Changing the sign on the elephant’s cage does not make him a monkey.
- John Brown was charged with Treason and Insurrection for the attack at Harper’s Ferry, (“terrorism” as a moniker not on the radar yet)
- Sept. 16, 1920: Wall Street Bombing, 38 dead, 400 injured. Called an anarchist attack by the Galleanists (Italian Anarchists). (nope, still not “terrorism”)
- The Weathermen: Simply known as “American radical left organization”
Every one of these events would be labeled as “Terrorist” by the standards of legal and media protocol today. “Unlawful or Enemy Combatant” was a separate designation coined to slide our legal ass through the tight diplomatic channel I mentioned above. This is the story of our language.
In England they call sausages “bangers”. Still tastes like sausage to me. Our discussion is about an idea. If the current label or word, applied to an offensive action is placed on another, dissociated action for the sly purpose of creating an association where none exists, then it should be exposed as such and the charade ended. This is the case of our overuse of “terrorism” by the media and politicians to excite fear and cooperation from a society, half informed and battle hungry.
Sweeping any resolution to the misdeeds of yesterday behind the protection of the constitution doesn’t secure justification.
Hear, hear! But . . .
It was never my purpose to confuse the term “misdeed” with any implied morality; and for shame as it would have added a specific sexiness to your statement. Assuming that a Democracy can, by popular vote, apply equal legal protection under the system of justice for “immoral” activities, (I.e.: abortion, capital punishment)then “protection under the Constitution” not only secures, but is the very definition of “justification”. (Please read my essay: the Freedom of Speech)
Changing direction to a suit and Kevlar tie approach at the 11th hour is only allowing for borrowed time that our foes will exploit. We’ve called for a “time out” by extending our hand but their ordinance has already been released in the form hatred and is being delivered by their clenched fists.
This is the most compelling sentence in the entire letter. I perceive the situation to resemble an American call for sanity after a long lost Frat house weekend of binge drinking. Those parts of our war effort that shocked and disgusted the world, which can be immediately corrected, are being corrected. The acknowledgement of other areas which need correction but pose challenges to our national security are under study for correction. This is the area which you refer to as a “time out”.
The Obama administration has never offered al Qaeda clemency of any kind. The efforts have instead been focused on bringing a sense of world class justice to this war. These changes have been directed at our allies and our own, increasingly partisan citizens; they are in no way designed to soften our stance with the terrorists. If some al Qaeda operative accidentally arrives to an authorized Federal Penitentiary to begin serving his life sentence without the mysterious and unauthorized scars or contusions you appear to relish, accept my dog-eared copy of the United States Constitution as a token of friendship, but don’t wait for an apology.
The past actions of this country have opened Pandora’s Box. If you honestly believe we’ll be able to close it with some hand shaking and the backing of our court houses, you better get home before midnight or your coach will turn back into a pumpkin.
It troubles me more when my own countrymen begin tearing into each other over ideology than when the same conflict is the result of foreign savagery. This attitude toward the global threat of terrorism has as much and as little to do with al Qaeda as it has to do with the rift between conservative and liberal sensibilities which have controlled the nations conscience since the days of Hamilton vs. Jefferson.
Rush and Fox care far less about securing the rights of citizens than securing the rights against non-citizens. On the other hand, Maureen Dowd(NY Times) and Keith Olberman seem to have lost their edge since Bush has gone and the Democrats gained the Congress and Presidency.
Al Qaeda is simply the latest excuse for Americans to stretch our necks out of the car window to scream how little our spouse truly understands us.
Yes we can end this whole thing tomorrow. Close the borders, airports and harbors; kill all “detainees” everywhere. Tell all U.S. citizens currently abroad that they are on their own. Isolate all non-citizens in the Nation and send them packing. Fuck everyone but us. Al Qaeda can now go back to farming or textile weaving or something. I’ll bet over thirty percent of the country would support this.
But over thirty percent of the country would not support this. You cannot edit the rules when it is simply more convenient to do so, they will tell you. The rules, these folk would insist, are exactly what makes us a Nation. Break the rules and we no longer have an identity to defend.
And now, my pumpkin: the honest, ugly truth uniting both perspectives is our freakish size as a nation. The war-hungry conservatives are delirious with our current military might and find it beneath us to make the smallest concession. We can “go this thing alone”; we answer to no one. Case closed, (and on the dime).
To the more wary, peace-at-all-cost liberal, our size is a call to modesty. With the dollar losing ground and the Chinese industrial influence on the rise, our world wide reputation will soon account for more than our checkbook. If you honestly think this issue can be closed without some hand shaking and transparent court room ethics, they have a 1975 Chevy Vega for you.
If the goal is to remain honorable in the face of adversity, that’s very nice. I, however, would prefer an offensive defense and without prejudice. We try, convict, and imprison criminals not only as punishment for their wicked deeds but to deter other from continuing in their evil ways.
This has never worked. The death penalty for example, has shown no influence over the frequency of violent crime. Harsh sentences have been proven more effective in providing victims with healing through some proxy-revenge than deterrence through negative example.
These lunatics won’t flinch with this tactic and the physical damage that an “Al Qaeda” can unleash grows exponentially.
Yes. I see your point. In eight years al Qaeda has advanced from planting a bomb in some lunatic’s shoes to stuffing it in his underwear. Perhaps our single stumbling block has been operating like fucking cowboy idiots without inter-national cooperation.
We need to hold up more than a bible and the American Flag to distance their eagerness to cause harm from our shores.
Our “shores” are nothing more than a line on a map without our Flag and the Constitution behind it. The Bible only confuses the issue.
I may be softening my views but I’m easily confused with much of this issue. Although I continue to search for the ideal scenario, I would feel a hell of a lot safer if we could replace Eric Holder with George Patton.
We’re all confused. How could anyone hate us??? We’re so great and excellent. All we’ve ever done was use our friends, abuse the third world and fix everything through the IMF. Thank God my T.V. dinner is finally ready . . . Gotta go !
Love,
Prof Hot Wind
P.S.: Patton would certainly end the guessing, that’s for certain.
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