On June 14, 2013, US federal prosecutors filed a sealed complaint, made public on June 21, against Edward Snowden, an American former technical contractor for the National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The complaint charged him with leaking information detailing a mass Surveillance Program operating under the full cooperation of the American and British spy agencies. These charges include the unauthorized communication of national defense information, theft of government property,and the willful communication of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person. Snowden's leaks are said to rank among the most significant breaches in the history of the NSA.
On May 20, 2013, he left Hawaii for Hong Kong. On June 23, he then traveled to Moscow where it is believed he is waiting for authorization from Ecuador for permanent asylum.
Edward Snowden opened the world's eyes to the existence and practices a program dedicated to the illegal surveillance of the global public by the most powerful clandestine organizations in history.
Though a hero to many, Snowden is also considered a traitor to the United States by many others. His actions have indeed opened fresh diplomatic wounds between the United States and various governments around the world. This conversation is not intended to settle the issue, but instead offers a glimpse into the contemporary dialogue among average American citizens.
On May 20, 2013, he left Hawaii for Hong Kong. On June 23, he then traveled to Moscow where it is believed he is waiting for authorization from Ecuador for permanent asylum.
Edward Snowden opened the world's eyes to the existence and practices a program dedicated to the illegal surveillance of the global public by the most powerful clandestine organizations in history.
Though a hero to many, Snowden is also considered a traitor to the United States by many others. His actions have indeed opened fresh diplomatic wounds between the United States and various governments around the world. This conversation is not intended to settle the issue, but instead offers a glimpse into the contemporary dialogue among average American citizens.
(Note: As the drama is young yet, the facts and opinions recorded here are subject to dramatic contextual change.)
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=554217607955424&set=a.456102341100285.99159.455942847782901&type=1&theater
(note: this link connects to a photo of Edward Snowden over which the following message is printed:
"Sadly, 97% of FaceBookers won't repost this. BUT . . .
this is Edward Snowden. He gave up a $200,000 a year salary and his freedom so you could know that the NSA is spying on you. He fought for your privacy rights and didn't ask for anything in return.
Like and Share to show your support for Edward Snowden.)
Joe Cobb sorry, I already knew the NSA spied on lots of people...he's a criminal and his disclosure of classified material has hurt this country.
John Emr It's all good Joe. I really don't know what his motivations are, but I do know we have given up a lot of our personal freedom in the fight against terrorism. His actions may lead to more attention to this sacrifice of freedom. I am not a fan of "Big Brother"...
Jane Maru Brave man on many levels. Of course there will be haters, one of the unfortunate outcomes when truth is spoken. I continue to feel bewilderment by those who say he has broken the law when the law itself is clearly broken; and that our country has been compromised by this information is ludicrous, yet another indicator that the willfully ignorant shall always be with us.
Joe Cobb To be effective as a Security Agency against terrorists networks these days unfortunately means you have to be secretive and stealthy, this means what you do to protect Americans needs to be classified. The definition of classified means if you're not cleared and have a need to know, than you don't have a right to know. Disclosing classified information is a crime. This is nothing new. If he didn't know he was committing a crime, he wouldn't be on the run. Doesn't everyone know that credit card companys already know much more about you than the NSA does? If you aren't a threat to Americans, I'm sure the NSA has little interest in you.
Jesse LoRe I thought it was common knowledge that the NSA is spying on us! But we did not need this jack leg telling the rest of the world we are spying on them as well.
Joe Cobb I'm sure that those who want to harm Americans ie. kill them, are loving all the info this guy is spewing. He likely has done much more harm than good. Information gathered by NSA has no doubt, saved American lives. What are you willing to sacrifice to do that? War sucks but losing a war is much worse.
John Emr Zuckerberg and Facebook know more about me than anyone! That's why I think Facebook is completely funded by the CIA/NSA! Have you ever bought anyone a Starbucks gift card from Facebook?
Jesse LoRe John back in the early days of the internet when you typed "internet" in the search window the first thing that pooped up, was the big ol' CIA emblem. The government created the internet but there is way to much information moving around today for anyone to possibly monitor all of it.
Jane Maru Joe, you are not alone in what you believe.
"Protecting Americans", "Threat to Americans": catch-all phrases that are all the rage, everyone's saying them!!
It is my belief that to come from a stance of fear/defense is a detriment to our culture.
Countries have been spying and prying on one another for centuries and beyond. With technology, we can now go deeper/farther.
Jane Maru Daniel Ellsberg (if you don't know, he leaked the Pentagon Papers in 1971):
"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-America
Joe Cobb The definition of "terrorism" is to instill fear in people through seemingly random acts of violence. On 9/11 this war came to us when nearly 3000 innocent people were murdered in NYC and Jihad was declared on America. I for one, feel safer knowing that agencies like NSA are gathering intelligence on our enemy. Some things you just don't want to know. The threats to Americans are quite real and the challenging job of protecting Americans is more than just a catch phrase. Just ask any U.S. Marine, they'll tell you.
Jane Maru I talk to Marines all the time. I live in 29 Palms. I get my information first hand.
Joe Cobb then you know that they are not fighting a "catch phrase."
Jane Maru Words carry an energy all their own. The more they're repeated, the more likely they become or seem real. I choose a different perspective than the ones that consume the media.
I've been in conversation with Marines for over a decade. It sounds as if you would be shocked, Joe, to hear what they are saying.
John Emr And we live under a government that at one time advertised we were going to war over WMDs that didn't exist and threat used against dissent was a mushroom cloud analogy. There is definitely a threat, but it's due blow back. Terrorists are after America because of what our government and corporations have done, not because they hate our freedom. As usual, the government and the corporations(aka: the rich), are off the hook, we pay for it with our maudlin lives along with our tax dollars. Something has to be done to shake this system up. Ellsberg did it, Manning and now Snowden. If we were pursuing alternative energy sources like our lives depended on it, we could get out of the middle east, but alas, our oil company's heroin comes from this region, so we stay, and continue to fan the flames of terrorism every day we do...
Joe Cobb Jane, my whole family are Marines, my brother was killed in the Marine Corps. I myself am a veteran still working for DOD on a military base. I train the military on a daily basis and posses a security clearance so I can do so. I know very well what the military men and women are saying. If you do not fear what terrorists would do to you because you are an American if given the chance, you are either living in a fantasy world or the NSA is doing a really good job. Some people, like the people who work at NSA, get paid to deal with the reality. The intelligence they collect, which will never be and should never be public information, saves the lives of our armed forces overseas as much as it protects you here at home.
Jane Maru I gathered you were military, Joe. Thank you for taking the time to engage.
May you find peace in your heart.
Joe Cobb I agree with most of what you are saying John except for one thing terrorists groups do hate our culture of freedom. They shoot girls in the head for attempting to get an education. Their beliefs and hatred of the west, are deeply embedded in religious fanatacism. Jihad means "holy war". They want a world where every women is in a Burka and anyone who does not believe what they do shoot be beheaded.
John Emr Very, very few of them are of this jihad mentality. Just like very few of our christians are looking to stone adulterers. What they do in their own country and under the laws and rules that they have chosen, is some pretty sick stuff to me and most of us, but the people in any given country are free to do as they choose. We get involved, install a shah or regime to protect our rich greedy multinational conglomerations(again aka: the rich)interests, which we know eventually backfires and brings us to our knees, as in Iran circa 1979. We need off oil. We need to stay away from the house where the dog lives that likes to bite us. We are reaping what we've sown.
Perspective: Americans have killed more Americans since Sandy Hook than died in the WMD war in Iraq, or on 9/11.
Jim Ellis Instead of folks just saying "those evil so and sos, they just hate our freedom", it might be worth considering the political histories of outside nations in oil rich countries. It might also be worth checking into what power structures benefit from a perpetual state of war. Those issues might not be as easy to understand (and keep down) but I pretty sure it will get us closer to knowing what is really going on.
Joe Cobb Would be nice if terrorists groups just stuck to themselves. Unfortunately, on 9/11, a day I will never forget, the Bin Laden led group Al-queda declared war on the United Sates and called upon other terrorists groups to join in by calling it a holy war. There have been mistakes made and I'm not defending them, but it doesn't negate the fact that we are still engaged in that same war that started before we entered Iraq. These groups want Israel, the US, England and other socially advanved countries to go back to the stone ages where they are stuck. What they did to 3000 of my friends and countrymen is inexcusable. As to exactly, why they did it, I don't really give a shit. Our government and our Commander in Chief have a legal and moral obligation to use our military might whenever necessary to keep America and Americans safe. The message sent: you fuck with America, you get the horns. Do I wish we all got along...sure I do. Do I think they will negotiate?...not when there's virgins involved.
Jim Ellis Not giving a shit why they did it, insures that such things will continue to happen.
Joe Cobb I don't give a shit why they did it because what they did in targeting innocent civilians was dispicable and inexcusable for any reason. They are the lowest form of scum on earth and have no respect for human life or human rights. They are misguided extremists and what they have learned is that when you piss off the American people, you get a role in a major motion picture about you being eliminated from planet earth. You want to defend terrorists, go right ahead. People I know are not confused about who the good guys are.
John Emr We've been targeting their innocent civilians long before they targeted our Joe. What year did we install the Shah? We threw the first stone. Flash forward to Iraq today: 4,000 plus American troops dead, 100,000 plus Iraqi civilians dead, 1,500,000 plus Iraqis displaced from their homes, 0 WMDs found. China is the largest consumer of Iraqi oil because American oil companies are too damned greedy. We need to get moving on alternate energy and get out of the middle east.
Joe Cobb John, I'm not going to debate the iraq war with you other than to say that the US does not intentially target innocent civilians because we are not terrorists. Jim when you fly commercial airliners into civilian buildings, you clearly have no interest in peace. In my opinion, you are giving Al queda way too much credit or you just don't give a shit about the people who were murdered in the WTC.
Jim Ellis So Joe, first you accused me of defending terrorists, now I'm ambivalent to murder victims, all because I don't agree with you? Keep those mental gymnastics up. Did you know I'm wearing a monocle. That brush of yours is just a tad broad.
Linda Sampson Rotella What happened when sensitive issues were "top secret"? I will wait and see where this goes....nor do I think that this hasn't been done for the last few decades .
Although I do have to say this...I am guessing that the Boston Marathon Brothers phone calls were not included in these phone call interventions...
My father was in Marines almost 20 years..and my brother in the Air Force for 28 years in the last 15 years or so...as a sensor on an AC-130 Spectre Gunboat...a sensor can see the ground from the picture that the Infra Red (google AC-130 and see actual hits)
That being said..my father after his return from WWll (Guadacanal) and Korean War..and I never heard him talk about either...wouldn't talk about anything.
I also asked my brother many questions..
Me: "I Read in Newsweek that the AC-130 are taking off from Italy...
My brother: I cannot confirm or deny that question..which was his response to anything I asked...information remains secretive for a reason...I cannot understand this new trend of McCain and others wanting the Government to have newly acquired information to be given to the world immediately ( eg Benghazi) what our response will be..should be confidential...shouldn't it?
Maybe I am old school.... But what happened to Classified Information?
Joe Cobb Jim it's just that you seem to want to justify what the terrorists have done rather then condemn them. If we don't come back strong then the terrorists continue to tell our enemies that we are weak and continue to blow up Americans. War sucks, its never pretty but we did not start this one. John and I agree on most issues but apparently not on the war on terror. Our armed forces are risking their lives in Afganistan to keep this war off our streets and all that is needed is a big thank you for what you do. Terrorists are willing to blow themselves up if it means killing you and I. I for one am not willing to wait for that to happen. We know more about their organizations than most of their own leadership that has managed to survive. We know them well enough to know that our work is not done. We have weakened our enemy to the point where troops are starting to come home, a very good thing and I give a lot of credit to the President.
Jeff Thomas With all due respect, I'm not quite sure that the Marines get the final word here. Many of the principles you Service men and woman enlisted to protect are undermined by the Federal practice of covert activity on its citizens.
It is an equally valid observation that a majority of Americans remain satisfied with the patronizing justification of these tactics as necessary toward minimizing the human cost: i.e.: an "all volunteer" military; reduction of successful terrorist activity on our shores. (read: keep the war abstract, out of my living room.)
I agree with John when he criticizes the armchair complacency of our citizens, perfectly willing to loose the reins of "privacy" as the tax for the right to ignore many of the socio-economic practices which perpetuate the need for these encroaching, invasive practices.
"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin.
I am of the firm belief that the life of a soldier is no less valuable than the life of any civilian who lost their life in the 9/11 attacks.
Allowing the terrorist to watch us dismantle our highest principles for fear that our "mercenary force field" is inadequate delivers a special sense of victory that too few of us mention in these debates.
John Emr "Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben FranklinJoe, I agree with you, but I also believe our government and corporations(aka the rich) are the real traitors here. The economy thrives on the military industrial complex. It creates many civilian jobs, as well as feeds the mercenary economy, which in facts sacrifices our troops at a discount, but makes big money for the corporate entities behind it, Haliburton, Lockheed, etc.
Joe Cobb Here's my final two thoughts....1)this NSA whistle blower broke the law and most likely will go to jail for it and 2) we need to remain the best fighting force around which includes the use of cutting edge technology like drones if we are going to minimize losses to American lives. Drones are as accurate as the intelligence that is fed into them and is fed to our leadership. It's not surprising that Fox News is taking the oportunity to attack the NSA since they were running out of fabricated scandals to talk about in their relentless effort to damage the Obama administration. Fact is that most of what was leaked were things set up by the Bush administration but we know that doesn't matter. Lastly, having to wait in line at the airport while TSA ensures your flight is a safe one is an unfortunate consequence of what we know now about terrorists. It's the world we now live in. It could be worse. You can call taking precautions being fearful if you want but I call it being smart and unlike 9/11, prepared.
Jeff Thomas I agree with you on much of this Joe, but waiting on lines at the airport aint unlawful and being smart aint the same as being Constitutional. If we can't operate a safe defense under the Constitution then let's get some amendments out there for open discussion in Congress and let We the People swallow some of the complicity inherent in these "Our Contradictions."
------------------------- a few hours later ------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Thomas An eloquent essay describing the weakness of my opinion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html
I like Thomas Friedman, and thought this was worth sharing.
Joe Cobb Thank you for this. My argument exactly.
Jeff Thomas My pleasure Joe. This article manages a deep suspicion I share with many critics of the data-mining program; namely: the inclusion of an independent judicial check on it's operation. This emphasis was clearly absent from my initial posts.; hence my "weakness."
However, the article also bears out a critical flaw in our approach to the "war on Terror" which I conclude is the American population's willingness to delegate our attention to the custodial clean-up of the consequences to a system which continues to offend the long term stability of the global economy and the environment.
"Imagine how many real restrictions to our beautiful open society we would tolerate if there were another attack on the scale of 9/11." Friedman, from Blowing a Whistle
The subject of this Country's unwillingness to compromise our reckless addiction to "conspicuous consumption" is never considered in this debate. We simply provide our tithe to the Federal Government and assume they will sort out these pesky foreign problems by proxy. This includes an "anonymous" army(*) of volunteer soldiers and the slow erosion of our protection of personal privacy.
(*) I mean no disrespect to those like yourself who serve. I'm simply expressing this "vacancy of inclusion" the vast majority of the nation's civilians experience when the subject of personal sacrifice is introduced. The wars remain abstract, the sacrifices are abstract, the only connection to the process is felt in the supermarket and the gas pump.
Joe Cobb Well said Jeff. As true Americans meaning soldiers, civilians, veterans, reservists and the like, we are all in this for the long haul together. Nothing affects this country more deeply and profoundly that being successfully attacked on our own soil. Most adult Americans have never forgotton the horror of 12/7, the day that Pearl Harbor fell victim to a sneak attack. 9/11 killed many more victims and nealy 100% of them were civilians living the American dream and relying on our government to keep them safe. What does it take to prevent such tragedys from repeating? I don't pretend to have the knowledge or the clearance to know the answer to that question but I know it will take much more than simply putting boots on the ground around the world. Shortly after 9/11, I had an interesting personal experience, I called information and asked for a number of one of my best friends from high school, who's name happens to be Mohammed. When I was connected, I found myself speaking to an unknown voice saying that he in fact was Mohammed, (used his last name). I said I'm tring to reach Mohammed that graduated from Molloy HS with me in 1980 and he said this is he. I named his brothers and he said this is he. Only thing was, I knew it wasn't him and later confirmed it with my friend who wasn't surprised it happened at all.
John Emr I wonder what would have happened if his name was McVeigh?
Jane Maru Some of us are born in the world to create, some to destroy: Light and dark: the eternal balance.
Joe Cobb The US military men and women that work so hard for your freedom were not "born to destroy" anymore than you are. What they do is protect you and defend this great country from people who wish to destroy it. You owe them respect for the risks they do take for you.
Jane Maru: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/9320-dont-thank-me-for-my-service
(this a link to an essay written by an American soldier: Don't Thank Me for My Service)
John Emr True of most for sure. Some are sexually assaulting quite a few within the ranks, as well as committing some atrocities. Not all heroes... I've read this before Jane, it's poignant...and heartfelt.
Joe Cobb That's true John. Jane, whether a Marine thinks he should receive thanks or not, you should be thankful for them and expressing your gratitude is appreciated by the vast majority. Without these people you would be slaving away in some factory without the opportunity to create a thing for sure. I do know one group that does not think they should thank our soldiers or show respect to them at their funerals. You don't belong to a Baptist church do you?
John Emr Hell no. But I also am wary of sounding patronizing. The horrors of war are unimaginable for civilians. Friends and family who've experienced it have told me no movie has ever captured it. I respect our troops and my thanks is always there...my distain for governments and the greedy rich corporatists who profit from it lingers.
(note: this link connects to a photo of Edward Snowden over which the following message is printed:
"Sadly, 97% of FaceBookers won't repost this. BUT . . .
this is Edward Snowden. He gave up a $200,000 a year salary and his freedom so you could know that the NSA is spying on you. He fought for your privacy rights and didn't ask for anything in return.
Like and Share to show your support for Edward Snowden.)
Joe Cobb sorry, I already knew the NSA spied on lots of people...he's a criminal and his disclosure of classified material has hurt this country.
John Emr It's all good Joe. I really don't know what his motivations are, but I do know we have given up a lot of our personal freedom in the fight against terrorism. His actions may lead to more attention to this sacrifice of freedom. I am not a fan of "Big Brother"...
Jane Maru Brave man on many levels. Of course there will be haters, one of the unfortunate outcomes when truth is spoken. I continue to feel bewilderment by those who say he has broken the law when the law itself is clearly broken; and that our country has been compromised by this information is ludicrous, yet another indicator that the willfully ignorant shall always be with us.
Joe Cobb To be effective as a Security Agency against terrorists networks these days unfortunately means you have to be secretive and stealthy, this means what you do to protect Americans needs to be classified. The definition of classified means if you're not cleared and have a need to know, than you don't have a right to know. Disclosing classified information is a crime. This is nothing new. If he didn't know he was committing a crime, he wouldn't be on the run. Doesn't everyone know that credit card companys already know much more about you than the NSA does? If you aren't a threat to Americans, I'm sure the NSA has little interest in you.
Jesse LoRe I thought it was common knowledge that the NSA is spying on us! But we did not need this jack leg telling the rest of the world we are spying on them as well.
Joe Cobb I'm sure that those who want to harm Americans ie. kill them, are loving all the info this guy is spewing. He likely has done much more harm than good. Information gathered by NSA has no doubt, saved American lives. What are you willing to sacrifice to do that? War sucks but losing a war is much worse.
John Emr Zuckerberg and Facebook know more about me than anyone! That's why I think Facebook is completely funded by the CIA/NSA! Have you ever bought anyone a Starbucks gift card from Facebook?
Jesse LoRe John back in the early days of the internet when you typed "internet" in the search window the first thing that pooped up, was the big ol' CIA emblem. The government created the internet but there is way to much information moving around today for anyone to possibly monitor all of it.
Jane Maru Joe, you are not alone in what you believe.
"Protecting Americans", "Threat to Americans": catch-all phrases that are all the rage, everyone's saying them!!
It is my belief that to come from a stance of fear/defense is a detriment to our culture.
Countries have been spying and prying on one another for centuries and beyond. With technology, we can now go deeper/farther.
Jane Maru Daniel Ellsberg (if you don't know, he leaked the Pentagon Papers in 1971):
"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-America
Joe Cobb The definition of "terrorism" is to instill fear in people through seemingly random acts of violence. On 9/11 this war came to us when nearly 3000 innocent people were murdered in NYC and Jihad was declared on America. I for one, feel safer knowing that agencies like NSA are gathering intelligence on our enemy. Some things you just don't want to know. The threats to Americans are quite real and the challenging job of protecting Americans is more than just a catch phrase. Just ask any U.S. Marine, they'll tell you.
Jane Maru I talk to Marines all the time. I live in 29 Palms. I get my information first hand.
Joe Cobb then you know that they are not fighting a "catch phrase."
Jane Maru Words carry an energy all their own. The more they're repeated, the more likely they become or seem real. I choose a different perspective than the ones that consume the media.
I've been in conversation with Marines for over a decade. It sounds as if you would be shocked, Joe, to hear what they are saying.
John Emr And we live under a government that at one time advertised we were going to war over WMDs that didn't exist and threat used against dissent was a mushroom cloud analogy. There is definitely a threat, but it's due blow back. Terrorists are after America because of what our government and corporations have done, not because they hate our freedom. As usual, the government and the corporations(aka: the rich), are off the hook, we pay for it with our maudlin lives along with our tax dollars. Something has to be done to shake this system up. Ellsberg did it, Manning and now Snowden. If we were pursuing alternative energy sources like our lives depended on it, we could get out of the middle east, but alas, our oil company's heroin comes from this region, so we stay, and continue to fan the flames of terrorism every day we do...
Joe Cobb Jane, my whole family are Marines, my brother was killed in the Marine Corps. I myself am a veteran still working for DOD on a military base. I train the military on a daily basis and posses a security clearance so I can do so. I know very well what the military men and women are saying. If you do not fear what terrorists would do to you because you are an American if given the chance, you are either living in a fantasy world or the NSA is doing a really good job. Some people, like the people who work at NSA, get paid to deal with the reality. The intelligence they collect, which will never be and should never be public information, saves the lives of our armed forces overseas as much as it protects you here at home.
Jane Maru I gathered you were military, Joe. Thank you for taking the time to engage.
May you find peace in your heart.
Joe Cobb I agree with most of what you are saying John except for one thing terrorists groups do hate our culture of freedom. They shoot girls in the head for attempting to get an education. Their beliefs and hatred of the west, are deeply embedded in religious fanatacism. Jihad means "holy war". They want a world where every women is in a Burka and anyone who does not believe what they do shoot be beheaded.
John Emr Very, very few of them are of this jihad mentality. Just like very few of our christians are looking to stone adulterers. What they do in their own country and under the laws and rules that they have chosen, is some pretty sick stuff to me and most of us, but the people in any given country are free to do as they choose. We get involved, install a shah or regime to protect our rich greedy multinational conglomerations(again aka: the rich)interests, which we know eventually backfires and brings us to our knees, as in Iran circa 1979. We need off oil. We need to stay away from the house where the dog lives that likes to bite us. We are reaping what we've sown.
Perspective: Americans have killed more Americans since Sandy Hook than died in the WMD war in Iraq, or on 9/11.
Jim Ellis Instead of folks just saying "those evil so and sos, they just hate our freedom", it might be worth considering the political histories of outside nations in oil rich countries. It might also be worth checking into what power structures benefit from a perpetual state of war. Those issues might not be as easy to understand (and keep down) but I pretty sure it will get us closer to knowing what is really going on.
Joe Cobb Would be nice if terrorists groups just stuck to themselves. Unfortunately, on 9/11, a day I will never forget, the Bin Laden led group Al-queda declared war on the United Sates and called upon other terrorists groups to join in by calling it a holy war. There have been mistakes made and I'm not defending them, but it doesn't negate the fact that we are still engaged in that same war that started before we entered Iraq. These groups want Israel, the US, England and other socially advanved countries to go back to the stone ages where they are stuck. What they did to 3000 of my friends and countrymen is inexcusable. As to exactly, why they did it, I don't really give a shit. Our government and our Commander in Chief have a legal and moral obligation to use our military might whenever necessary to keep America and Americans safe. The message sent: you fuck with America, you get the horns. Do I wish we all got along...sure I do. Do I think they will negotiate?...not when there's virgins involved.
Jim Ellis Not giving a shit why they did it, insures that such things will continue to happen.
Joe Cobb I don't give a shit why they did it because what they did in targeting innocent civilians was dispicable and inexcusable for any reason. They are the lowest form of scum on earth and have no respect for human life or human rights. They are misguided extremists and what they have learned is that when you piss off the American people, you get a role in a major motion picture about you being eliminated from planet earth. You want to defend terrorists, go right ahead. People I know are not confused about who the good guys are.
John Emr We've been targeting their innocent civilians long before they targeted our Joe. What year did we install the Shah? We threw the first stone. Flash forward to Iraq today: 4,000 plus American troops dead, 100,000 plus Iraqi civilians dead, 1,500,000 plus Iraqis displaced from their homes, 0 WMDs found. China is the largest consumer of Iraqi oil because American oil companies are too damned greedy. We need to get moving on alternate energy and get out of the middle east.
Joe Cobb John, I'm not going to debate the iraq war with you other than to say that the US does not intentially target innocent civilians because we are not terrorists. Jim when you fly commercial airliners into civilian buildings, you clearly have no interest in peace. In my opinion, you are giving Al queda way too much credit or you just don't give a shit about the people who were murdered in the WTC.
Jim Ellis So Joe, first you accused me of defending terrorists, now I'm ambivalent to murder victims, all because I don't agree with you? Keep those mental gymnastics up. Did you know I'm wearing a monocle. That brush of yours is just a tad broad.
Linda Sampson Rotella What happened when sensitive issues were "top secret"? I will wait and see where this goes....nor do I think that this hasn't been done for the last few decades .
Although I do have to say this...I am guessing that the Boston Marathon Brothers phone calls were not included in these phone call interventions...
My father was in Marines almost 20 years..and my brother in the Air Force for 28 years in the last 15 years or so...as a sensor on an AC-130 Spectre Gunboat...a sensor can see the ground from the picture that the Infra Red (google AC-130 and see actual hits)
That being said..my father after his return from WWll (Guadacanal) and Korean War..and I never heard him talk about either...wouldn't talk about anything.
I also asked my brother many questions..
Me: "I Read in Newsweek that the AC-130 are taking off from Italy...
My brother: I cannot confirm or deny that question..which was his response to anything I asked...information remains secretive for a reason...I cannot understand this new trend of McCain and others wanting the Government to have newly acquired information to be given to the world immediately ( eg Benghazi) what our response will be..should be confidential...shouldn't it?
Maybe I am old school.... But what happened to Classified Information?
Joe Cobb Jim it's just that you seem to want to justify what the terrorists have done rather then condemn them. If we don't come back strong then the terrorists continue to tell our enemies that we are weak and continue to blow up Americans. War sucks, its never pretty but we did not start this one. John and I agree on most issues but apparently not on the war on terror. Our armed forces are risking their lives in Afganistan to keep this war off our streets and all that is needed is a big thank you for what you do. Terrorists are willing to blow themselves up if it means killing you and I. I for one am not willing to wait for that to happen. We know more about their organizations than most of their own leadership that has managed to survive. We know them well enough to know that our work is not done. We have weakened our enemy to the point where troops are starting to come home, a very good thing and I give a lot of credit to the President.
Jeff Thomas With all due respect, I'm not quite sure that the Marines get the final word here. Many of the principles you Service men and woman enlisted to protect are undermined by the Federal practice of covert activity on its citizens.
It is an equally valid observation that a majority of Americans remain satisfied with the patronizing justification of these tactics as necessary toward minimizing the human cost: i.e.: an "all volunteer" military; reduction of successful terrorist activity on our shores. (read: keep the war abstract, out of my living room.)
I agree with John when he criticizes the armchair complacency of our citizens, perfectly willing to loose the reins of "privacy" as the tax for the right to ignore many of the socio-economic practices which perpetuate the need for these encroaching, invasive practices.
"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin.
I am of the firm belief that the life of a soldier is no less valuable than the life of any civilian who lost their life in the 9/11 attacks.
Allowing the terrorist to watch us dismantle our highest principles for fear that our "mercenary force field" is inadequate delivers a special sense of victory that too few of us mention in these debates.
John Emr "Those who would sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben FranklinJoe, I agree with you, but I also believe our government and corporations(aka the rich) are the real traitors here. The economy thrives on the military industrial complex. It creates many civilian jobs, as well as feeds the mercenary economy, which in facts sacrifices our troops at a discount, but makes big money for the corporate entities behind it, Haliburton, Lockheed, etc.
Joe Cobb Here's my final two thoughts....1)this NSA whistle blower broke the law and most likely will go to jail for it and 2) we need to remain the best fighting force around which includes the use of cutting edge technology like drones if we are going to minimize losses to American lives. Drones are as accurate as the intelligence that is fed into them and is fed to our leadership. It's not surprising that Fox News is taking the oportunity to attack the NSA since they were running out of fabricated scandals to talk about in their relentless effort to damage the Obama administration. Fact is that most of what was leaked were things set up by the Bush administration but we know that doesn't matter. Lastly, having to wait in line at the airport while TSA ensures your flight is a safe one is an unfortunate consequence of what we know now about terrorists. It's the world we now live in. It could be worse. You can call taking precautions being fearful if you want but I call it being smart and unlike 9/11, prepared.
Jeff Thomas I agree with you on much of this Joe, but waiting on lines at the airport aint unlawful and being smart aint the same as being Constitutional. If we can't operate a safe defense under the Constitution then let's get some amendments out there for open discussion in Congress and let We the People swallow some of the complicity inherent in these "Our Contradictions."
------------------------- a few hours later ------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Thomas An eloquent essay describing the weakness of my opinion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html
I like Thomas Friedman, and thought this was worth sharing.
Joe Cobb Thank you for this. My argument exactly.
Jeff Thomas My pleasure Joe. This article manages a deep suspicion I share with many critics of the data-mining program; namely: the inclusion of an independent judicial check on it's operation. This emphasis was clearly absent from my initial posts.; hence my "weakness."
However, the article also bears out a critical flaw in our approach to the "war on Terror" which I conclude is the American population's willingness to delegate our attention to the custodial clean-up of the consequences to a system which continues to offend the long term stability of the global economy and the environment.
"Imagine how many real restrictions to our beautiful open society we would tolerate if there were another attack on the scale of 9/11." Friedman, from Blowing a Whistle
The subject of this Country's unwillingness to compromise our reckless addiction to "conspicuous consumption" is never considered in this debate. We simply provide our tithe to the Federal Government and assume they will sort out these pesky foreign problems by proxy. This includes an "anonymous" army(*) of volunteer soldiers and the slow erosion of our protection of personal privacy.
(*) I mean no disrespect to those like yourself who serve. I'm simply expressing this "vacancy of inclusion" the vast majority of the nation's civilians experience when the subject of personal sacrifice is introduced. The wars remain abstract, the sacrifices are abstract, the only connection to the process is felt in the supermarket and the gas pump.
Joe Cobb Well said Jeff. As true Americans meaning soldiers, civilians, veterans, reservists and the like, we are all in this for the long haul together. Nothing affects this country more deeply and profoundly that being successfully attacked on our own soil. Most adult Americans have never forgotton the horror of 12/7, the day that Pearl Harbor fell victim to a sneak attack. 9/11 killed many more victims and nealy 100% of them were civilians living the American dream and relying on our government to keep them safe. What does it take to prevent such tragedys from repeating? I don't pretend to have the knowledge or the clearance to know the answer to that question but I know it will take much more than simply putting boots on the ground around the world. Shortly after 9/11, I had an interesting personal experience, I called information and asked for a number of one of my best friends from high school, who's name happens to be Mohammed. When I was connected, I found myself speaking to an unknown voice saying that he in fact was Mohammed, (used his last name). I said I'm tring to reach Mohammed that graduated from Molloy HS with me in 1980 and he said this is he. I named his brothers and he said this is he. Only thing was, I knew it wasn't him and later confirmed it with my friend who wasn't surprised it happened at all.
John Emr I wonder what would have happened if his name was McVeigh?
Jane Maru Some of us are born in the world to create, some to destroy: Light and dark: the eternal balance.
Joe Cobb The US military men and women that work so hard for your freedom were not "born to destroy" anymore than you are. What they do is protect you and defend this great country from people who wish to destroy it. You owe them respect for the risks they do take for you.
Jane Maru: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/9320-dont-thank-me-for-my-service
(this a link to an essay written by an American soldier: Don't Thank Me for My Service)
John Emr True of most for sure. Some are sexually assaulting quite a few within the ranks, as well as committing some atrocities. Not all heroes... I've read this before Jane, it's poignant...and heartfelt.
Joe Cobb That's true John. Jane, whether a Marine thinks he should receive thanks or not, you should be thankful for them and expressing your gratitude is appreciated by the vast majority. Without these people you would be slaving away in some factory without the opportunity to create a thing for sure. I do know one group that does not think they should thank our soldiers or show respect to them at their funerals. You don't belong to a Baptist church do you?
John Emr Hell no. But I also am wary of sounding patronizing. The horrors of war are unimaginable for civilians. Friends and family who've experienced it have told me no movie has ever captured it. I respect our troops and my thanks is always there...my distain for governments and the greedy rich corporatists who profit from it lingers.
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